Adventures in Neverland: a Kickstarter success story worth more than 500,000 euros

Interview with the game designer of 'Adventures in Neverland' ”

As starting game designers, we want nothing more than to release a good game ourselves, whether or not through a Kickstarter.

Vicky Swers has undergone this adventure and has been working with Black Box Adventures her game 'Adventures in Neverland' released. A great success story with which she has won almost 5,000 backers.

We got to ask Vicky about how her game has become such a huge success!

We discuss, among other things:

• How the 5 years of game development went.
• What makes Adventures in Neverland so special.
• What the collaboration with Black Box Adventures was like.
• How to find playtesters and promote your game. (via trade fairs)
• Vicky's golden tip!

Listen to the interview with Vicky:

* Scroll down to read along with the transcript!

Relevant links

- Missed the Kickstarter? Pre-order Adventures in Neverland via Spelhuis.be.
– Check out the Kickstarter page.
– Read more about Adventures in Neverland on Boardgamegeek.
- Make your own game? Start with our Basic manual.

Full transcript:

• 0:00 Nikki - Welcome Vicky, this is Nikki and Niels from NiNi Games. Here we have Vicky Swers with us where we are going to conduct an interview. She is the creator of Adventures in Neverland. Vicky, could you tell us a bit about yourself? Brief introduction, who are you, what do you do?

• 0:21 Vicky - Yes, I am Vicky, indeed the designer of Adventures in Neverland. I am also an employee at the Spelhuis, a Belgian webshop. But we also have a physical store. I am a Belgian who has moved to the Netherlands.

• 0:45 Nikki - Do you live in Limburg?

• 0:21 Vicky - In Limburg yes, that's right, but just across the border, because yes, the Spelhuis is of course a Belgian store. I live in the Netherlands and work in Belgium. And I kind of got into the board games a few years ago. First as a hobby, I think like so many others. And that tasted like more. The more scholarships that I did, the more people I got to know, the more that I rolled into them. Yes, now I'm actually working on it full-time.

• 1:22 Nikki - Because what kind of work do you do at Spelhuis.be?

• 1:25 Vicky - We sell board games, online and in-store. So we have to make sure that the packages get to the customers. So everything that comes with a classic webshop. I am also in the store. So I help people who visit the physical store, I ask what they are looking for, and I am actually always looking for a match for them. Because with that huge range of games, yes, you also have a lot of different types of players and not everyone always likes the same thing. I especially try to match the right players with the right game. I will. That is basically what I do.

• 2:18 Nikki - It's nice that you can actually just share your interest with someone and look like 'okay, how can I help that person?'. That's okay, we also have a games store nearby. It is of course closed now, but it is indeed the nice thing that you can ask some questions instead of bol.com, where you can order ...

• 2:35 Vicky - Yes exactly, and we mainly focus on a lot of families and starting players because: We have noticed that people who are already in the hobby usually know where they can go. It is the families and novice players who actually mainly know Monopoly and Risk and Stratego and who are looking for something new, that they do not always know where to start. Of course, other games might be so difficult, then we really like to say 'No, there are also a lot of simple games that are just a bit different.' And we mainly try to pick up on that and reach those people. Yes, we try to do that.

• 3:21 Nikki - I think indeed, when we got into the game world a little bit, you can start giving names to things a little bit. Like, ooh I found out I like deck builders, but I didn't know what it was called, I didn't know there was a category for that at all. It is indeed a bit, you know the Monopolies, but there are so many different things. It is really big indeed yes. 

• 3:44 Vicky - Yes exactly, and that is great fun getting to know people with that. Because I notice that I have been in it for so long that it was a bit difficult for me to say yes, how do you explain Deckbuilding without having to use the word. Because yes, people will never have heard of it. Yes how do you explain that? Worker placement, engine building, all of those things. But then I just try to tell them how the game is going, whether this is in it or you are going to like this. Good luck, little luck, and yes, that works, that's great fun.

• 4:20 Nikki - Yes, exactly, and have you always been interested in board games or were you just a casual player, growing up and then Googling more about… or what kind of triggered you into really getting into it a bit more?

•  4:36 Vicky - Gosh, as a child I was usually the one who took the initiative for a game, because usually this was not discussed very often at home. But I only really started playing as a result of role-playing, like D&D and Pathfinder. Because I like to hear stories, I like to tell stories, and it's actually through those games that I got into the thematic board games in addition to the role plays. And from the thematic board games on to I would say slightly more mechanical board games, because I am not someone who likes to play heavy strategic games very much. But I did roll in that way and discovered ooh that kind of games I like that way and that way.

• 5:37 Nikki - Your threshold was actually just: oh, that theme, I find that very stimulating and fun and then…. The fantasy actually a bit with that. Which you also see very much in your game 'Adventures in Neverland' of course. That theme just jumps and of course you really get such a nostalgic stimulus in yourself, like 'Oohja, Peter Pan'. We also play… or my friend especially, D&D, so that is recognizable. Indeed making up that world, figuring out how combat works. Yes, that is quite close together, you can see that it happens a lot.
  
  So, Adventures in Neverland, I will record what I already know about it so you don't have to repeat yourself. If I am correct, it took you about 5 years to develop it. It was put on Kickstarter in April 2020 and I think you were fully funded within 4 hours. And it eventually came to half a million. Really a great success. You have also done this together with Black Box Adventures (publisher), so I am also very curious about how that collaboration went. But let's start at the beginning, I read in an interview, you woke up in the middle of the night and you had a genius idea. How did that come about?

• 6:55 Vicky - I've always been a huge fan of Peter Pan, of the Peter Pan story. And when I discovered my love for board games, themed board games, I started looking for hey, is there a Peter Pan board game? Yes, there was none at the time. Now in the meantime there are a handful, but at the time I found none. And then I thought yes, you know, I have a number of geeky friends, I'm going to come up with something and if they want to play with me every now and then when I'm whining hard enough ...

• 7:37 Nikki - Haha, recognizable.

• 7:40 Vicky - Yes exactly, and I was throwing that around in my head, I knew I wanted to work with different character traits, I knew I wanted to explore the island. Yes I was doing a few things and it didn't click. And indeed, at one point, in the middle of the night, I thought: Oooh, that's it! ... In retrospect it turned out that it was far from being done, but the first step had been made, the first click had been made that I thought I would like to I'm about to do it. And from there made a first prototype and then start testing.

• 8:18 Nikki - And this special thing about Adventures in Neverland, I also read in the Kickstarter that it is a unique way to tell stories. Different every time, I can imagine that you don't want to tell everything every time, because it has yet to be released on the market, but can you give a glimpse of what makes it so unique?

• 8:39 Vicky - The fact that you can influence the stories yourself. I read a book once that said, okay, you are the character, the main character in that book, and if you make a particular choice, you don't go to the next page but you go to page 16, I now say something. And I liked that so much, or I thought that so much that I thought ooh, I want to do something with it. But gosh, that I work so much, and yes, I have written or written something ... yes, I also like to write. But I hadn't actually written anything for others or anything. So I didn't see myself as a writer. So I thought, yes, that is going to be too difficult and that might be less of a board game board game. So maybe I should get rid of that or yes, I wasn't completely convinced of that at first. But what I had before was too random. I had a board with the three different zones on it, water, forest and mountains, and then when you got to one of those spaces, you had to draw a card from the corresponding pile, and then you had to do what happened on it. As a player you had no control over that, that was random ...

• 10:05 Nikki - Aah good luck was actually in it?

• 10:06 Vicky - Good luck, it was very random, and I thought yes, no, this isn't it either. And then I tried to write such a screenplay and I liked it. And then we continued with that.

• 10:21 Nikki - So you actually used quite different starting points? Did you switch through that a bit?

• 10:29 Vicky - Yes, yes yes, you should also think, this is the first game I designed, so I just had to learn really hard from what makes a good game. Especially determining the target groups, I thought that in hindsight, if I did it again, I would have determined my target groups much faster. Because I didn't quite realize at the time that there were people who would rather play Euro games or would rather play an Ameri game. And what makes a Euro game or an Ameri game. If I then had people at my table, and they gave me feedback, this was sometimes contradictory feedback. Yes, one wants it like this and the other wants it that way. What am I supposed to do with this? Until I realized that they are different players. And what do they like to play and why do they give me that feedback. That was more important to me, the why. And once I lined that up, it became much easier for me to understand that feedback and say yes, I'll take that with me, and that, that's just going to be a whole other game, so I'll leave that. Most of the time has been invested in that.

• 11:52 Nikki - Yeah, that game just say a little of where am I going to plan, what am I leaving, how do I respond to feedback from people? I can imagine that indeed… We struggle with that from time to time. Our game is like a Dungeon Crawler for Solo or Duo and indeed we get a lot of different kinds of feedback from people who sometimes don't fit in that you think would never buy it. It's partly what you did in the beginning indeed, well, I have my games… Sometimes you were like, well, I don't like this. You also have to have courage to delete things, so now this is not going to be him, get rid of it. But you also have to have the courage to persevere that you think ok, I think this fits the target group.

• 12:34 Niels - How did you find out about that target group?

• 12:37 Vicky - By having a lot of playtesters. And more and more I ended up in the world myself, I also got to know the Spelhuis through that way. And just speak a lot of people and keep reading a lot on different forums. And also make those terms my own. At a certain point, those categories become a bit clearer. That you notice people who like to play game A, they go…. it is of course not that black and white, but they fall into a certain category and they like certain elements in a game. But then it also becomes a certain kind of game. And yes, just a lot of reading and talking with people, and playing a lot of games myself, of course, to see what I like. Because I also thought it was important to release a game that I support myself. Saying this I would buy for myself.

• 13:47 Nikki - Yes you are actually your own target audience of your game?

• 13:51 Vicky - Yes, I did start on my own, yes.

• 13:58 Nikki - And that playtesting, that's something ... Well, we are in different virtual playtest groups ourselves. So on Mondays and Thursdays we will also play other people's games and in return they will play your game. But it is often difficult to find people who want to play it.

• 14:14 Niels - Yes, especially now during the pandemic.

• 14:16 Nikki - Yes, because you also indicated that I go to trade fairs and stuff. How did you make…. Did that take a long time for you, finding playtesters? What are the golden tips from you?

• 2:30 PM Vicky - What the golden tips are… Ehm, I think that's a good question. I don't know if I have a good answer to that. I might be able to tell you how it went for me.
  
  Again, I didn't know anyone, I didn't know anything. I really started from scratch. At one point I just took my plunge to go to a local fair. To ask if I can come by with my prototype. There I made the first contacts. Gosh, I think through via. Most I must say, I got to know through fairs. That was my thing. I also feel that I am very good at that. I am not very good at e-mail or via ... Yes how should I say that. I like to be myself, and at such a fair you only have yourself.

• 15:51 Nikki - It's a different kind of effort that you have to put into it if you really need to email and Facebook messages. That can be quite tiring. I can imagine if you go there it is quite scary, but when you are there….

• 4:05 PM Vicky -Yes, exactly. You are no longer anonymous, you are no longer an anonymous e-mail address that you can set to delete. But you meet a real person. You immediately have a completely different click and that just went much better for me. And through those fairs I also got to know people who had game clubs, who had game stores. A bit through that route. So yes, I will say for me the stock markets have had the most impact. I've always seen that as a kind of job application. One of my friends also said look, if you have an application then you do not sit there in your sweatpants. No you are wearing a nice costume or a nice dress. You dress a bit or you present yourself .. And that's how I always treated my prototype. I can draw a little bit, I'm not that far into that, but I always made sure it was presentable and enjoyable. Yes well, make it a little attractive. Apparently that worked.

• 17:30 Niels - Was that at those fairs, was that the main goal for you to find people. Just playtesters, people who could play the game, or were you there to get in touch with publishers to see if they would be interested?

• 5:45 PM Vicky - My goal was mainly for playtesters, that was my first goal. But of course I also find it very scary to write to people, certainly at the time. So I wasn't so sure I'll come to you that way and then I might get rejected, but more of it hey, here I am. I made something beautiful out of it and if you like it enough, then you come to me. And then I'll do the explanation. I found that a little less scary. So I went for introducing it to a wider audience, not just my friends, and then publishers ended up sitting there too.

• 18:33 Nikki - That seems special to me, yes. You just said that if you think of one of the things that when you look back, gosh, I would do that differently, get that target group in sight a bit better. I think that's something a lot of people struggle with. If you look back from well, that was a smart decision, I am really happy about that, maybe milestones you have reached. What would that be for you?

•  7:00 PM Vicky - I had the idea quite early on that I knew what the game should be like, and with the feedback I got, I kept making small adjustments. I thought if I maybe fine-tune this a little bit then it would be the way they want it or maybe that. But that didn't work very well or I didn't achieve what I wanted to achieve. And at one point I said, what's the worst thing that could happen? If I now throw that whole design upside down, yes, it doesn't work…. And then?… Then I go back to the previous version. And I let go of that and just tried something completely different. Those scenarios were then. And that worked. And then I was like, yeah why haven't I done this before? So now and then just dare to let go and maybe try something really crazy or completely different. Because yes, what's the worst that could happen? That it doesn't work. Yes, and then we'll go back.

• 20:10 Niels - Yes, that's a good tip!

• 20:11 Vicky - That was one of those eureka moments for me.

• 20:14 Nikki - Yeah, don't be afraid to just throw in a change. It will be fine indeed yes. So soon…. We have read the latest update on your Kickstarter. That there is some delay due to Corona and the playtesting that it is now on May 2021 that the game can be released. It is a common thing that a Kickstarter is turned on that there is still a lot of work to be done on the game. So there was also some testing to be done. Can you tell us a bit more about how that process went in those 5 years, when did you stop developing, when did you think I would work with a publisher? After which periods did you think, I am ready for the next step, or now we can turn on the Kickstarter. How did those 5 years look like.

• 21:12 Vicky - I ran into Black Box Adventures quite early in the process. I think it took me 2 or 3 years when I met them. Yes, just went by once and showed it to them, but then it also looked very different, but they immediately saw potential in it. The thing is, they had another project running at the time as well. Frutti di Mare and then Itchy Monkey that was also on the rise. So yes, they were just working on other projects, but they said we like this, there is potential in this, but there is still a lot to be done. The moment we started working together, they were simply very actively involved in the further design of it. Bas and Bart themselves have a huge passion for games and with every playtest they did they also had feedback and suggestions. Actually, I have come to a point where I can no longer very well distinguish which ideas were mine and which were Bart's or Bas's. It was such a beautiful interplay of, yes, I propose something and then it was answered and then she suggested something and then I went back to it. In the end I do have the idea that it has become more our game.

• 22:50 Nikki - Wow, I wouldn't have thought from a distance that ... In my head it was like if you go to a publisher, you present your idea, then they say "Top" and it kind of goes out into the world. But apparently you really started working on it a lot together. That's really cool. And quite a long collaboration.  

• 11:08 PM Vicky - Yes they have also become my friends in the meantime.

• 23:10 Nikki - Yes, I get that, yes.

• 23:11 Vicky - So it was not before the pandemic, then we also walked together more often inside and outside.

• 23:18 Nikki - Yeah, I get that. Did you know in advance that you wanted to work with a publisher, was that the plan? You didn't think to spend it yourself?

• 23:29 Vicky - Gosh I have looked at that option, but again I started from zero experience and I knew quite early that if I want to continue with this, then I just have to be guided by people who have already done it once. And that didn't have to be the largest publisher or the smallest for me, it didn't matter that much to me. What I thought was very important was the theme, which is very close to my heart, so I will say on my first design. The project is close to my heart. I thought it was very important that the publisher I would eventually work with that they also respected that and that I could say until the last moment that I could have my say in it.

• 24:21 Niels - You managed to hear that too. If it really feels like your game, you know, then you did it right.

• 24:28 Vicky - Hell yes. I am very happy that I found them.

• 24:33 Nikki - Nice. And the moment of Kickstarter, when it was decided, now is the moment, now are we going to present it? Do you have ... That might be a broader question ... but the whole marketing piece is also something that game designers often dread. Like ooh, I have to get out there, I have to design things, I have to promote it. Did they do that themselves or did you also work together a lot?

• 25:00 Vicky - That was mainly their piece. The closer we got to Kickstarter, the more I got involved. In the sense of, yes, well, I also participated in all scholarships. So many times people knew me. I also answered questions or remained involved with players, but really the concrete marketing piece they did. Now during the Kickstarter we were so overwhelmed. Yes I have also responded to messages and or Facebook responded and the like. Just because we are three people and that was just a lot of work. Did I answer your question like that? They took on that part and I helped where I could.

• 26:00 Nikki - Yes, I get it. Because of course they also had the experience in it, then they can do that well. I want to talk a little more about the great success and the surprise of it, before I started about the marketing piece I asked, 'What is the moment of Kickstarter?' Did they take you into that a little bit like "Now it's time Vicky, let's go for it!" or not?

• 26:27 Vicky - Yes at some point you just have to push the start button. We've wanted to launch it for some time, but it's a very complex game to make. Not so much to play, there are some smaller rules in it, so we have also put it at twelve years, but it is in itself quite easy to play. But to make it is very, very challenging because you have those different scenarios. I don't have a 100 page book, I have 40 cards to write something on. In fact, I have to make sure that those 40 tickets have different versions and it should look like you were supposed to get past different tickets. That it is a logical whole. And that is so difficult. We have been playtesting it for so long and had to look it up and on… Yes, this is not correct, I did not meet a pirate in a minute, what does that card say now. That is quite a puzzle, you should actually see it as a puzzle. After which we could then pour a layer of story over. That took a long time and we are still playtesting on some parts. That's why we also did that update. That is just very difficult and the puzzle not only has to be right, it also has to be a bit of an interesting story too. So there are quite a few things involved. And apart from that, of course we have the scenarios, but how that the game is built… we also have some open-world elements in it. I don't know if you've ever played or seen Western Legends or anything.

• 28:38 Nikki - No, I don't know him.

• 28:40 Vicky - You have certain locations where you can go where you can do certain actions where you can get things or the like, or get points or get items. But while you travel around the board you can also have random encounters that you have to do something with. So it's a combination of those things that sometimes makes it difficult for us to take into account. And to get it balanced, it took quite a bit of work. At one point we said look, we have been making people enthusiastic about it for so long, we are going to have to launch it anyway. Because if they have to wait too long, we will lose that momentum again.

• 29:31 Nikki - Yes, the momentum indeed, otherwise you will lose.

• 29:34 Vicky - Yeah, okay, but we're in the middle of a pandemic right now. I don't think people are going to give money to that now. Yeah gosh, hmm hmm… We've really been on the verge of not doing it.

• 29:45 Nikki - Then you would have missed that.

• 29:49 Vicky - Finally said of: Yes guys, we're just going to try. We'll see ... well and then it was 4 o'clock and then ...

• 30:01 Nikki - Yes, really nice.

• 30:02 Niels - Yeah, how were those 4 hours? I imagine you're just looking at that page all the time and maybe replying to messages.

• 30:11 Vicky - We also have a volunteer team, which normally, in normal times, also helps us at the fairs. So building up, breaking down and the like. We were all in one big Skype meeting or Discord, I don't remember what we used. And we sat in front of the screen from the launch button until it was funded and celebrated and talked. Yes, that was a lot of fun.

• 30:43 Niels - Yes party.

• 30:43 Nikki - Yes, it was really a surprise that it went so fast and actually went so well?

• 30:49 Vicky - Yes, it does to me. I can't speak very well for Bart and Bas, although I don't think they expected such a success. But for me, I knew what I had created interest, I knew I had reached people I wanted to reach and were ready to back it up, so to speak. How do you call that? An audience, I knew I had built an audience. But we had very few channels abroad. I knew, we are in the right place in the Benelux, but to really make it, we also have to go broader. We weren't really sure about that. We didn't know how many backers we could expect from other countries. And that has gone very fast. I did not expect that. I was a bit upset about that myself and I find that quite exciting because there are also a lot of people that I myself have not seen at trade fairs. Who just saw the page and thought: ooh, I like that and click. Yes, I just have that myself…. yes I thought that was very strange.

• 32:05 Nikki - Yes, that is a crazy idea indeed, that someone you do not know, who thinks well, that seems nice and cool, without you ... Yes, it is not as if they allow you or something, it is more like 'Me wants this thing '.

• 32:15 Vicky - Yes exactly, exactly.

• 32:18 Nikki - But also great that it appeals like that, just because of the idea indeed. 

• 32:23 Vicky - Yes and I must also say, we are also very happy with Frederick, the draftsman. It had exactly the style I was looking for. He also added a lot of things to the lore I will say. It is also partly because of his drawings that people get stimulated, ooh, what is this now. So yes, I am very happy with that too.

• 32:48 Nikki - Yes it looks really nice indeed the drawings. A bit Disney, but also a bit old that it reminds you of a bit earlier and stuff. Does Frederick work at Black Box Adventures?

• 33:01 Vicky - No, no, he is an independent draftsman and Adventures in Neverland is just a project for him, just as he has several projects running.

• 33:13 Nikki - And you have also been able to give a lot of input with the design style, say? Because you indicate that it is exactly as you thought it would be.

• 33:20 Vicky - Yes, I thought it was very important that it more imitated those older fairy tale books, because playing Dungeons & Dragons myself I saw a lot of, yes at first mainly digital drawings and often very over the top. Magical, which is also very beautiful in its own style, but I wanted to go back to those old-fashioned books for Neverland. Those older fairytale books. I told Anton Pieck, um, Arthur Rackham, that's one of the original artists on the Peter Pan books. He also had such a style. Yes, I thought that was important to you, one to give it its individuality, especially and also because I think it is a very nice style myself.

• 34:22 Nikki - Was that before… I also looked a bit at Black Box Adventures, they have different, very different types of games. Different types of styles. Was that still important for them to have a certain kind of style, or did they leave that reasonably free in that?

• 34:40 Vicky - They actually left me very free in that. I also think that they now .. You may have to ask them yourself because I'm gambling now. I think they mainly look at what fits the game specifically and not so much ... Yes, they look a bit at what fits in with what they already have, but for example Frutti Di Mare and Itchy Monkey are very nicely in line and who knows if there are more games that we can create more lines or a certain fire. Because Frederick also signed Revenge of the Dictators, for example. But that is again in a different style.

• 35:30 Nikki - Very different yes.

• 35:35 Vicky - Did I answer your question? Sometimes a question gives you an idea and then at some point I start to digress, so if I go too far you should definitely stop me.

• 35:50 Nikki - Yeah, I just like it. Because then I ask a question and then things come up that I think are ooh, interesting. In my daily life I work in marketing, sometimes when you have an interview with people, nothing comes out. But now it is nice that you are fairly open about that. At the same time I am looking at the questions with an oblique eye. Because we have actually covered a large part, about the Kickstarter and about the process. Before I start on this, do you have any specific questions that you missed or?

• 36:22 Niels - Ehh, not necessarily. I think you have that moment that the Kickstarter has been running and in a few months people will get the games home, then we are talking about 5000 people who will play your game. Or yes, 5000 people who will receive your game and who will play it with many more people. That is of course fantastic. After that, I think Black Box Adventures will also release this game in retail?

• 36:51 Vicky - Yes, we have a deluxe version that was only available for retail now, so if retailers wanted it, they had to jump on the Kickstarter train. Afterwards we will, or yes, it is now also available, do a retail version. That is the same game, the same content, but there is much more work with cardboard than with plastic or wood and the like. Just to cut costs a bit. But afterwards it will be made available in retail.

• 37:25 Niels - And if there are people who have indeed missed the Kickstarter train, who still want the game, how long do they have to wait for it before seeing it in retail?

• 37:34 Vicky - Ooh, I find that a very difficult question because that is actually more of Bas's territory.

• 37:41 Nikki - Well, I can imagine if people might read this or maybe see them thinking, ooh, that kind of sounds interesting that game. Where can they get it easiest or what is the most convenient thing for them to do?

• 37:53 Vicky - They can always contact Black Box Adventures directly, but the Spelhuis also offers it of course. So they can also order through the Spelhuis. There are also several stores that have flattened the deluxe version and I assume, I don't know… I don't know if all of that has already been sold or if they also provided some as stock. In any case, enough has been provided for people who have not been able to back it that they can still buy it.

• 38:35 Nikki - Nice, and maybe then, maybe I should have asked that a bit earlier, but if you were to recommend Adventures in Neverland to a certain group of people, how would you describe it? Who is it fun for?

• 38:50 Vicky - It is especially fun for people who like adventure. It is an adventure game where the journey is actually more important than the goal. There are points to be won, of course, because we had to provide a drive for the players. But they are more like experience points like you have in the role-playing games. So the more stories you do, and the more adventures you have, the more points you will get. So basically the most adventurous player is going to win. I have also often been asked what is the right choice? If I get such a ticket with a scene on it and I have to choose A or B, what is the right choice, where will I get the most points? Yes, you have to see that, what does your gut feeling say, do you want to go left or right, do you want to open the door or keep it closed. Take your pick, let's see. You have to dare to dive into it a bit and suppose you… yes, I am not going to say… You cannot make the wrong choices! Now suppose it all fails and it doesn't go the way your character would like it to go, your story doesn't end in principle. You fail, and then you have to try another path. So it's not like ooh, you have 3 missed dice, yes done, then you are out of the game. No, it doesn't work that way. You just move on, and if it is really over at some point, yes then you are also very far in the game and we have noticed that the other players are also ready. You really have to see it as a story and something that you jump into. Let's say the journey is more important than being the winner.

• 40:37 Nikki - Well does indeed sound very different from how you normally think about a game. That triggers a bit, like okay, how does that work, that's nice. Then I actually had a question like, you are probably still very busy with Adventures in Neverland. But what's next for you? Are you going to develop more games? How do you see the future?

• 40:58 Vicky - Hah, I still have a few things on the shelf, but I said Neverland should just be with people first. That is now my top priority. And besides that, I am also just interested in other prototypes, which is why I wrote to you as well. We also want to focus more on publishing games through Spelhuis. I also want to contribute to that. So, on the one hand, further developing my own games, when that Neverland is ready, on the other hand finding and releasing game ideas for the Spelhuis. And if Neverland is indeed so popular, then we would also like to knit a sequel.

• 42:00 Nikki - Oehhh, expansion.

• 42:05 Vicky - Those are things you can just make up stories for. And there were also a number of suggestions for other books to do during the Kickstarter.

• 42:18 Nikki - Ooh yes, sure yes, smart yes.

• 42:22 Vicky - But I don't want to make any promises about that because there is an enormous amount of work involved and there are a lot of if-and related to it. But if I can choose, I would continue to do it.

• 42:38 Nikki - Cool, okay, I think I asked for everything I wanted for me. You too?

• 42:44 Niels - Yes, of course, thank you very much anyway for being able to conduct this interview.

• 42:49 Nikki - Yes, apart from the fact that it is also just interesting content, I also thought it was very interesting to hear how it all went for you. There are also many recognizable things in it. For me what I've learned the most from you is 'Just do it'. Just go, show yourself. Maybe also a bit of trying to use your own strengths. For the things that you are less good at, don't be afraid to ask for help or to act in a different way. I think that is also a good thing to consider.

• 43:21 Vicky - Exactly, yes. For me this was one of the things that I thought was important. I would also like to be advised by people who have a little more experience or know a little more about it. If I can still give you a tip: Yes, it is important to maintain individuality, but it is also important to want to learn. It's my baby, but I want the game to be the best version of itself. If someone else has a better idea than me, then I have to dare to implement it. I have sometimes encountered designers who were so scared to see their own child deformed or handed over. I sometimes find that a shame, because then I think there is still so much potential in it, just try it. And if it ain't nothing, yeah there's nothing ... yeah like I just said ... that's keeping you from going back. So that was a very important one for me. Uniqueness is one thing, but daring to learn is another.

• 44:47 Niels –Yes and in the end you make a game for other people, so it is only important that you make the best game possible.  

• 44:53 Vicky - Yes, especially if you look at it from a commercial point of view. If you only make it for yourself, it doesn't matter that much. But you also want to sell the game, so you are also working on how I sell the game to as many people as possible. Or at least, how do I reach my target group. So that was just one thing I wanted to turn on, what I learned and also found very important in the process.

• 45:21 Nikki - That's a very good one, I think. Something where probably several people indeed… hey, letting go of your baby is sometimes difficult indeed. That's a good one.
  
  Then I think we can end the interview for now. Thank you Vicky.

• 45:36 Vicky - Okay, nice, yes, thank you.

• 45:40 Nikki - I liked it and we'll just keep in touch.

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